https://t.co/alyz4N2EmT
So... shipped video games are a miracle
— Cormano (@coormanoo) December 18, 2020
One hidden reason why games industry has a huge crunch culture is simple. At some point, you're going to throw away a huge chunk of your game, and you have no idea what that will be or how significant it's going to be.
— Damion Schubert, Zen Designer (@ZenOfDesign) December 18, 2020
1/thread
So... shipped video games are a miracle
— Cormano (@coormanoo) December 18, 2020
do you think the misses of design and planning are because videogames are such a new medium, especially at the AAA scale?
— Charles George (@Chargeorge) December 18, 2020
Are there studios out there that are the exception? If so, what do they do differently?
— eduardorh (@edu723) December 18, 2020
Followed. And also - players expect games to become bigger, better, more interactive, more stuff, more everything, realistic with 3d smellaround, sensaround and support for every gadget known to man. No matter how complex it is now, it will be twice that in a year or two. \U0001f61e
— Christian Dumancic (@CDumancic) December 18, 2020
I saw it said Crusader Kings 3 by Paradox was made with 0 crunch. I think Valve have a very healthy schedule as well and oddly EA are known for treating employees pretty well.
— . (@coxtonyard1231) December 18, 2020
That's interesting. I'm of the opinion that the first 15 minutes of most games are the worst part and usually where I struggle most not to drop the game. It often feels simultaneously over designed and clumsy.
— phbz (@RuiSFidalgo) December 18, 2020
I have a background in webcomics and it\u2019s to be expected that Page 1 will start to look like utter shit to you by the time you make Page 500. But it would be impossible to finish the damn thing if you go back and redo page 1! You\u2019ll just improve again and have the same issue!
— Rawb \U0001f3f3\ufe0f\u200d\U0001f308\u2728BLM (@windpriest) December 18, 2020
2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 11 are just great examples to show, how our industry is totally unprofessional, in terms of managing/executing sw dev projects :)
— Bal\xe1zs Simplex \xd3v\xe1ri (@simplex_fx) December 18, 2020
Someone's art/tech masturbation without actual ROI. Bad task order/prio. No early gameplay testing. Shitty QA. Bad tech decisions.
Eg: when someone ask you to hack shit for a demo, you should either -refuse (not neccessary directly, you could give est for the "right" way)
— Bal\xe1zs Simplex \xd3v\xe1ri (@simplex_fx) December 18, 2020
-Communicate the tech dept very clearly + add it to backlog (might not work if your manager is also seriously unprofessional)
One owner kept bypassing the art lead and the posted schedule to bust into the artists' offices and give them direct commands for new assets based on whatever he saw on tv the night before.
— Wetterschneider (@Stretchedwiener) December 18, 2020
When I told him to run those ideas past the lead and onto the schedule... I was fired.
\u201cOops, we accidentally built a fun game instead of a money-sucking vortex of misery.\u201d
— Mapache (@mapache) December 18, 2020
Except you totally can. If you're doing constant content updates, you should have a constant stream of new players.
— I'm PsyMar (not Constantinople) (@PsyMar) December 18, 2020
And I really, REALLY fell for CDPR guys right now. I can see so much passion and talent behind those pixels. And while not on the same magnitude - I\u2019ve been in their place too, it just kills you, all this hard work for nothing.
— Hideo Kijima (@KizymaYaroslav) December 18, 2020
Yeah. The last time I crunched I had this exact conversation with the executive team, explaining how excessive overtime actually drives productivity and quality down. I was told my "Empowering, coaching, mentoring style of leadership was inappropriate." I run my own ship now.
— Anthony Castoro \U0001f4bc (@CastoroGamer) December 18, 2020
Thank you for the well-written and thought out insight (also, I followed \U0001f601).
— Snarfield \U0001f680\U0001f6f0\U0001f5a5 (@Snarfielld) December 18, 2020
This thread was kind of surreal to read. I\u2019m part of a small indie team, and even we have experienced most of the things you listed. In a way, it\u2019s heartening to know that we\u2019re not just bad at this.
God, if I could beat an RPG in 2 hours, I would actually play them all the time! Not having time to play is the key reason I don't buy RPGs anymore.
— DaisyFM \u2712\ufe0e (@peprally) December 18, 2020
Lets make a MMO noob! I heard it's EZ
— DezertDragonSCVI (@DezertScvi) December 18, 2020
I\u2019m still here from last Christmas\u2019s Star Wars disaster
— Falcon Crest (@Falcon___Crest) December 18, 2020
Blizzard has no more good will. It's gone, they squandered it. But they do still have the war chest of cash
— LordKraken85 (@Rohlfy85) December 19, 2020
LMAO!!
— RK_Revolthell (@Revolthell) December 19, 2020
Laughed so hard I could taste blood pic.twitter.com/sjfNGml2sK
One thing I've always noticed even before Cyberpunk, people tend to assume games go "gold" or they are "finished". To me it seems like they're merely released in whatever state they could get it to.
— RK_Revolthell (@Revolthell) December 19, 2020
Maybe early access for bigger titles could be a huge solution, most AAA games
Agreed. Fun can not be dictated by a design doc, the design must be playtested and iterated upon.
— CodeLobe (@CodeLober) December 19, 2020
"There, it's done, it's perfect," said no gamedev ever. There is always room for polish and devs will crunch rather than losing a feature they really want to keep from cutting.
None of those problems inherently require crunch.
— Gopher (@GopherAtl) December 18, 2020
Crunch is what happens when those problems interact with a hard deadline for completion. This interaction doesn't just happen as the deadline approaches, it's baked into early scheduling and planning decisions.
I also would like to add, these problems compound and cause people who LOVE their job to slowly become less endeared to it and lots of experienced people burn out/move to the software side of things due to the low pay, long hours, problems with diversity, and -constant- stress.
— Gregor Thunderdragon, last of his name. (@MagusFirebeard) December 19, 2020
We crunched... oh how we crunched...
— Erich Schaefer (@mediumclawboy) December 19, 2020
And, frankly, they tend to be conservative in their design, tech, and art requirements.
— Mike Sellers - always working on N+1 projects (@onlinealchemist) December 19, 2020
Btw, communication with "suits" is part of the job. But we kinda suck at it.
— Bal\xe1zs Simplex \xd3v\xe1ri (@simplex_fx) December 18, 2020
I've been on the painful end of a project manager who won't stand up to product owners and allows insane scope creep. I'd say iterative/episodic releases would work until the culture is fixed but they produced the Witcher just fine.
— T04ST (@T04ST1E) December 18, 2020
THANK YOU. This helps me understand development and crunch a lot more. Seems like 99% of people think it\u2019s just evil CEO\u2019s wanting to be evil and work people to death. Or there\u2019s not enough people Or the mgmt isn\u2019t good. Its more complicated then we could imagine
— Derek584 (@Derek5841) December 18, 2020
Redoing the art because the game took so long to produce that hardware got better is a painful Sisyphean exercise.
— Wetterschneider (@Stretchedwiener) December 18, 2020
Well written and informative. Any insight you could give on how writing for a game is? Are a lot of ideas just thrown out even if developers have already created parts or cutscenes that go along in that direction? Do they just scrap them?
— Pillow (@zzzpls) December 18, 2020
You forgot to mention the ridiculous notion of starting from scratch after a massive project ships, just because people want to design
— Ahmed Salama (@Salamatizm) December 19, 2020
Plot twist: This happens with every order of magnitude of active users.
— Tammo 'kb' Hinrichs (@kebby) December 18, 2020
This is the part that kills me, when you're working with publishers and producers who have done this many times before but still think you can plan a multi-year game down to the man-week from the outset and have any degree of reliability. Even though it literally has never worked
— Alex Beckers (@acbvictory) December 18, 2020
Have seen all of this, can confirm. I describe it as \u201cmaking a film except the camera, lenses and lights all get reinvented and replaced, and now work differently, every 12 months\u201d
— Jeff Zugale, Starshipwright (@jeffzugale) December 18, 2020
While I agree with this, I also think that the core part of our job is figuring our way through these issues without resorting to burning out our teams. We have to control the narrative of budget/ time/ quality
— Athena Z Peters (@AthenaZPeters) December 18, 2020
That thinking, for the most part, is a relic of the retail sales model we leveraged for decades. More bodies in stores looking for gifts meant more potential sales. We\u2019re not totally there quite yet, but the digital marketplace for AAA games is changing this practice.
— Ben Jones (@Bagelbeard) December 18, 2020
This is a really good and important thread, but can you please tell what this full RPG you can beat in two hours is called.
— Marshall Lemon (@Marshall_Lemon) December 18, 2020
Xmas event/feature always involves a big end of the year push
— vivekramkumar (@vivek25) December 18, 2020
Crunching for 9 months straight actually makes the problem worse - the game would have still been behind schedule without crunch but it may have actually been *less* broken.
— Ido Yehieli makes games (@tametick) December 18, 2020
Many gamers understand that and have valid complaints that the new monetization schemes make games inherently unfun
— Boris Chuprin (@noop_dev) December 18, 2020
One you missed - games take years to build and you often see games that are in your genre/space come out and WILDLY change player expectations. You frequently have to make changes or else come out as hopelessly outdated.
— dallasdickinson (@dallasdickinson) December 18, 2020
you haven't even touched on the domino effect of any one department redoing their work and every other department having to redo their work to match and the prioritization / hierarchical positioning of who gets told abt the changes and when. GAME DEVELOPMENT IS HARD.
— Cookie Hiponia Everman (@cookie_everman) December 18, 2020
testing as an industry is ignored, minimized, and under-utilized. we needed a union...
— slvrsrfr (@hrldofgalactus) December 18, 2020
I've only ever worked on games of smaller scale but isn't this also a management/process failure? What are the feedback and approval processes? I've quickly cut loose OS houses not hitting the mark.
— Emily Greer (@EmilyG) December 18, 2020
My other favorite one is where the outsourcer turns in a bunch of assets that legal rejects because the OS just slightly painted over things they found on Google. Cool cool cool.
— Chris Koeppel (@badgermancer) December 18, 2020
So they intentionally have to make these games less fun by design? I mean we all knew it implicitly but it's good to have someone say it out loud.
— DonLasagna YTChannel (@DonLasagna) December 18, 2020
Is this about how Ubisoft\u2019s CEO\u2019s nephew was bored playing AC1 so they adding some things to the game?
— theducktitan (@theducktitan) December 18, 2020
Don\u2019t forget how much of what you laid out so well is subject to shitty, unstable engines and tool chains. They just compound the misery.
— Jeff Ross #DaysGone #PlayStation #Sony (@JakeRocket) December 18, 2020
This one extra hurts after working on a QA team that put in a fair bit of feedback that got ignored for months to years, but then watch a team scramble to implement it in the 11th hour because someone who wasn't QA gave the same feedback
— Crazyer (@crazyer6) December 19, 2020
You are killing it in this thread. Best summation of crunch I've ever seen. I've been getting physically angry at so much simplist crunch talk on twitter recently, I didn't even know where to start. So thank you, I can just point people to this thread now!
— Erich Schaefer (@mediumclawboy) December 19, 2020
This is what surprises me the most https://t.co/KZ9TfP7GO2
— Jota Jota (He) (@JotaJotaPRA) December 19, 2020
Adding people can also be risky. It takes time to onboard new people, usually one of the experienced people on the project need to take time out of their work to do it, leading to reduced productivity until onboarding is complete, but not necessarily boosted productivity after
— \u30ed\u30c3\u30d7 (@southro_p) December 19, 2020
Fun fact, adding people ALSO requires adding time. Because people need training.
— Talarian (@Talarianjs) December 19, 2020
No matter what, you're going to need more time. https://t.co/aNpZV5NmbO
This thread is well worth a read. As someone who knows nothing about game development, I must say the whole thing sounds like absolute hell https://t.co/JgA1EPNbiA
— Cyber Pen (@synthwavepen) December 19, 2020
As QA I was once asked in a phone interview what test cases could be made for Mario's jump. I said "holy cow, that's the central mechanic!" And went off for about 10 minutes.
— Kynetyk knows what you did wrong last build (@KynetykKnows) December 19, 2020